Episode 8: July 14, 2021

Gregarious Narain 0:23
Welcome back to the Created Economy, it's our weekly news show on everything happening in the creator economy. We bring you a roundup of the latest news, commentary, interviews, and deep dives on key topics and the creator economy itself, and all the players involved. We do go live on Wednesdays at 3 pm Mountain Time. And you can find out more over at https://created.show, the official show page. In case you're listening, we do stream on Facebook, YouTube, Twitch, Clubhouse, and Twitter Spaces simultaneously. So pick your poison, whatever is best for you, we encourage you to pick that channel and get over there. We do run this show in an interactive manner. So you have the opportunity to participate a number of different times throughout the recording. So feel free to raise your hands, send us comments and DMs and we'll try to bring you up as best we can.

Gregarious Narain 1:09
We do also keep longer-form content and notes, show notes, transcriptions, etc. Over at createdeconomy.com, so feel free to head over to there as well. Ken, how are you doing?

Ken Yeung 1:20
I'm good. You know, every time I hear that I see that countdown and that music. It feels super dramatic, right? And it's like, I'm like, wow. Like this is like some we need something like breaking news.

Gregarious Narain 1:31
Like you have that weird dream. Like where you hear that countdown music and you're like, Oh my god, it's supposed to be on the show.

Ken Yeung 1:36
Yeah, it's very triggering. I was like, Oh, my God, what's going on? But it's good. And by the way, I want to get this get I have something to tell you. And I want to get it off my chest right now. I mean, like, congratulations on having your company Zealous have been named one of the top five companies, startups to watch in Colorado, right this year. Oh, that's amazing.

Gregarious Narain 2:01
I appreciate that. And, you know, it has been a hard or hard bit of effort. Petr and I have been hard at work trying to, you know, sort out everything that we need to sort out. But we're making good progress. We will be running the entire show, by the way on Zelo soon, but you will be able to join us to try those out for yourself. And about an hour when we do our after-show. So I do appreciate that. And I appreciate our friend Cassidy, the reporter over at Built in Colorado who did cover us and think about us for that article. So why don't we dive into it, Ken, because we have way too much news today? Like, a ridiculous amount. So welcome back to episode eight, July 14, we are happy to be here.

Gregarious Narain 2:43
What am I doing wrong here? Okay, there we go. By the way, we do. Ken has already prepared tweets and links to everything that we're going to mention today. So if you want to follow along, we're over on Twitter at creator economy. That's a chance to get access to all these links in real-time, give them a read, and also can follow up. But if you want to follow it up later, you can do so as well. So let's dive right into it. Let's head over to the news. And what do we got today? We got some Facebook news. Ken, I think this is you?

Ken Yeung 3:10
Oh yeah, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, I mean, look, this is. Earlier this week, The New York Times came out with this article about how Facebook's trying to woo creators and influencers onto their platforms. They're trying to remain competitive against YouTube and Tiktok. And in previous episodes, we've talked about how Facebook has kind of gone really hog wild in terms of releasing products and holding events to show that, hey, we could you know Facebook and Instagram can be a viable platform for them. Earlier today, or this morning, actually, Mark Zuckerberg announced that Facebook was going to put forth a $1 billion investment into creators, which means that in the next two years, they're going to reward creators who use their platforms. So basically, it's bribery, right? It's $1 billion bribery, to creators to use them. And, you know, this is all, you know, who knows where this is gonna go, right? You know, they've tried this with media and publishers and everything like that, to get them to use live video, and that kind of, you know, fell by the wayside. Now they're trying to get creators to do this. And this is not just for any, any specific type of creator, this is all general audience of creators, right.

Gregarious Narain 4:22
And it's a silly thing to know because it sounds like a lot of money. $1 billion, obviously, so it's not a trivial amount of money, but it's $500 million dollars a year. There's a lot of people on Facebook, right, so that's gonna get spread out pretty widely. My guess, pretty quickly.

Ken Yeung 4:37
But this is pocket change for Facebook, when you think about how much other companies have spent, like somebody. Somebody actually pointed out on Twitter right after this announcement happened that YouTube in just three years paid out $30 billion, right. So compare it like Facebook has this huge market cap and a lot of money on a hand and they're putting in a billion dollars right now I think this is kind of the starting point for Zuckerberg for everything and billion dollars for education, billion dollars for whatever, and a billion dollars for creators. You know, it's a good step starting a starting point for Facebook, but they clearly have a long way to go.

Gregarious Narain 5:17
Yep. I just realized Ken, did I. Alright, well, I'll let you do your Clubhouse news and then I need to check something. So next up, we will see how this plays out. But the wars are on for sure. Right. We do have Clubhouse news. So I think this is yours.

Ken Yeung 5:35
Absolutely. So now talking about Clubhouse, which you almost what you basically ruined at the start of the show. Thank you very much, Greg.

Gregarious Narain 5:43
No one heard that part.

Ken Yeung 5:46
But so here are two exciting things that are coming. So in the battle for social audio supremacy. I'm not actually sure if that's a thing, but I'm going to make it a thing. You're going to now have exclusive shows on Clubhouse and this basically like an exclusive podcast. And it's not surprising to see these types of special deals being made. Twitter has the NFL. Now Cubhouse has TED Talks. So you're going to see TED chats Actually, these are more like, you know, rooms that are dedicated around TED talks that are going to be available on Clubhouse. But I think what everyone really wants and is probably not really surprised is that now you can slide into people's DMs, direct messages, on Clubhouse without having to go elsewhere. Right? So previously, when clubhouse launched if you know if Greg, you're someone that's hosted rooms on clubhouse, you know, people wanted to message you, they'd have to go to your Twitter, Instagram, or somewhere else right? Now, you know that they cut clubhouses cut through all the bull, and now you're able to just, you know, ping people directly. So those that are on clubhouse now listening to us, if they want to have asked us any questions, you know, or have something to say, and if they're not able to come on stage, they could just ping you or I and get their message across?

Gregarious Narain 7:07
Well, we'll see. It'll be interesting. I've used it. I'm not blown away, but I guess it you know, it's there. I guess I'm just not used to doing DMs. I guess it's better that it is there. But who knows, right? We'll see. We'll see how this works out in the long run. There was some stuff some Substack news as well. I don't really know why people are so blown away by this actually, to be frank. But Substack is basically offering a free mini-course, I think it's like six lessons or, or something like that to teach, you know, new and early Substack users how to basically get to their first $1,000. Can they actually get you to your first $1,000? I doubt it? You know, like I don't think the program is going to yield directly this result, you know, there are best practices. But I still believe that you know, we've not fully unlocked the TAM of the sort of creator economy, and especially the fan economy. And so I just don't think there's an infinite number of dollars to keep spreading and cutting for everyone to be generating $1,000 quite yet. You know, certainly not for newsletters. I think there's just there's a huge discovery ramp here. But a lot of people are excited to see it, I guess. You know, they're looking for ways to differentiate, they're looking for ways to sort of drive-through, and I guess the considering with review, and what's the thing Bulletin that Facebook has done?

Ken Yeung 8:24
Yep.

Gregarious Narain 8:24
Yeah, right, I guess, you know, they're, they're looking for ways now. Look, I'm happy that they're doing this. They also have a fund where they do invest in creators. So they're, they're experimenting, and I appreciate that. And I think that's great. But a course on how to get to your first 1,000. Okay, cool, like, I guess Sure, why not? I'm just not, I'm not really sure like that. Because you have a course means you actually get people to the first $1,000 in any meaningful timeframe.

Ken Yeung 8:48
Yeah, no, I think that's definitely a very complex situation, because it's more about the content, right? It's like, but I think it's helpful for Substack to have these types of tutorials. So to get people acclimated to what you can do, and how creative you can be on a platform, as opposed to I mean, it seems pretty straightforward. Like, "oh, here's how you do an email newsletter, right?" You know the interface, the features are pretty standard. You know, and basically, at the end of the day, it all comes to what's in your mind that you want to get across, and what is your angle? What is your perspective? But I think, you know, when you if you try to make it a business that you know, I think subjects like "hey, we look, we're not just gonna be like a MailChimp or Vertical Response or anything like that, where you can just easily create stuff, you know, this, there's an art form to this, and you're going to want to level it up a bit." But I agree,

Gregarious Narain 9:37
Yeah, it's a high order, right? I mean, like $1,000 a month is like, you know, at $5. Right? That's like, what 200 subscribers it takes a long time to get like subscribers, for paying subscribers for a newsletter. So yeah, we'll see how it goes. I wish them the best. And I wish obviously all the creators the best and achieving that goal. So I hope they find something special there. We had some new youtube news as well. Okay, this one I think was one of yours.

Ken Yeung 10:01
Yeah, this I mean, this is a fun one, right? And a former colleague of mine at VentureBeat Jordan Novet, who's now at CNBC. He wrote this story up covering these YouTubers, some of whom are actual Microsoft employees, like current Microsoft employees are going out and making tutorials about Microsoft's own software and actually amassing huge subscriber accounts, way more than the official company channel. Right. So this is pretty, pretty fascinating to see how like, you could have your homegrown influencers, right. And this is how they can help evangelize your product, right? And Microsoft has been pretty supportive of this, right? And there's not saying like, Oh, no, you know, Ken you can't do this, you know, you gotta you can't do this tutorial around PowerPoint, or Excel or anything like that, you got to do this, I think it's great that they're encouraging this, that they're embracing this, especially since Microsoft is being used by a majority of computers, is installed on a bunch of computers around the world. And so this kind of really helps to help spread the education and awareness of the software. So this is pretty fun.

Gregarious Narain 11:20
It doesn't surprise me, though. I mean, you know, it's like, sort of like everything by anybody other than the company is still more believable than something by people at the company.

Ken Yeung 11:28
Right. Yeah. But I think it's also and in an act of revenge against you. I'm willing to spoil this, this is tied, you know, the fact that these are, some of these are active Microsoft employees that are doing this, you know, this, this kind of raises up the point of like having hiring creators in house, right. So we'll be talking about that more.

Gregarious Narain 11:51
Yeah, more opportunities for employment. But yeah, so that makes perfect sense.

Gregarious Narain 11:56
Let's see, what do we get here? Oh, I'm clicking the wrong thing. All right. So there were a number of different thought leadership posts from the community and I want to share shine light on some of them, our old friend and past guest, Neil Robertson from influence echo had an interesting piece in his latest newsletter, about creator advertising. And I'm actually surprised that we don't see more creators running ads for themselves to market their channels I had previously heard about, and seeing creators using it sometimes to boost performance for specific deals that they were doing, maybe they need to get meet some sort of thresholds or performance benchmarks. But I do think, you know, what Neal points out is that he's actually been starting to discover actual creative critters, just running ads and buying billboards, like literally promoting their own channels. And it makes perfect sense, you are a business at some point. And you know, that a business can benefit from advertising.

Gregarious Narain 12:47
There was another great post over on Mirror about NFT's and the meme economy. And I think like NFT's in particular, I'm sorry memes, in particular, I do think represent an interesting category. You know, it was an area where these were the kinds of things that tended to grow large, and have mass distribution, but no one, the creator of those means, never sort of benefited from this. So I thought it was just an interesting analysis, diving into some of the opportunities for meme generators, meme creators to actually be able to create and publish some of these to lock up some of their content inside of NFT's so that they could benefit from it. And I think that there's an interesting opportunity there for more behavior like this. We've also seen in the past couple of weeks, some of the older videos like Charlie Bit My Finger and some other things being taken down and packaged up as NFT's after they've kind of run their course on YouTube and things like that. So a lot of interesting stuff here. I think this is probably one of the more use cases of NFT's that I can imagine. And I think it's somewhat affordable. And it seems to speak to I think some of the strengths of that model. On to creator economics, whose first this is you.

Ken Yeung 13:57
This is me. Yes. So if you're if you've been on social media at all, you may have come across the channel Nas daily, right. And this is the founder of that has actually formed his own academy. And they've held an annual event actually, a few weeks ago, where they invite creators in to learn about how to, you know, to create more content. And so this time, they've raised $11 million, I believe, from Sequoia and Andreessen Horowitz. I believe I'm not 100% sure on that one. I have to, I gotta check that again. But the point is that they're building out a masterclass a course that's basically allowing creators to pass off their knowledge to other creators. So it's very much inception, type of motif. Right. So this is what I know, we've been talking about this last week. Greg, you raise up an article, I think from The Information about how creators are creating their own classes or startups or creating these creator courses. This kind of falls in line with that as well.

Gregarious Narain 14:59
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely tremendous opportunities, I think I will be curious to understand what types of classes these are like, are they? And I'm guessing there's there are multiple levels here. But you know, there, there's a lot of interest, it seems right now and people just making courses and classes about how to be a creator. And then, of course, there's the expertise from your own domain. So it will be very interesting to see what kinds of classes do come out of this ecosystem. Amazing, though, a lot of money. This one, I think, is yours as well, Ken.

Ken Yeung 15:32
Absolutely. And I think this is the last one for me. And then the rest, the last two are yours. So a little bit of a nice little profile from Protocol from David Pierce around Pinterest. Now, those that use Pinterest may not necessarily think of it as part of the creator economy, but it actually wants to be a part of it. And it could be a dominant force in there. And now a lot of the those, it's not your chip, like what you're like live streaming, or, or Instagram posts or anything like that. But it's more with ideas and actually creating stuff. And what they've done is they created this specific type of pin, which originally was called the story pin, but stories is not really what you do on Pinterest, they created what they renamed the idea pin. And if you've used home design apps like Houzz or anything like that, where you kind of draw inspiration about, you know, how you might want to decorate or anything like that. This is the that's the intent of what Pinterest wants to do. And they've started to branch off, it started to enhance their platform and add more features to kind of really help creators take advantage of to showcase things like, like what you're seeing here, like makeup, whether it's a home design or anything like that. And I say don't sleep on it. And I really hope that we could have someone from Pinterest, join us on the show in the future to really talk about this because I think it's really worth diving into.

Gregarious Narain 16:56
I'm sure they will be here sometime soon. We will make it happen. Don't worry. All right. So you know that Taylor had a busy week, wasn't this article from Taylor also?

Ken Yeung 17:10
Yes, that Taylor. Yep.

Gregarious Narain 17:11
So Taylor Lorenz had an article, just I think, right, you know, sort of touching on a theme that we talked about, we covered sort of a couple of times in the past. But just, you know, there is a gold rush going on for the creator economy. And I think one of the things that she does point out in this article, though, is really about, I think, speaking more towards sort of the creator tech side, which is really building the tooling to enable creators. Whereas I think I've seen commentary and other people make note that not as much of that money is actually being invested in creators, right. And so it's an interesting distinction there. But I, you know, I'm curious, know, I hope this space continues to grow, obviously, you know, as someone who's likely to be raising money in the space as well. But at the same time, you know, I, you know, I don't know how much saturation of market space can take, right. And so it will be interesting to see how the next three, six months play out if the fervor is still there, or if we don't if it dies down at all. But I do encourage everyone if you have a chance to take a read of this article as well, because she does outline a lot of the parts going on in the ecosystem and some of the bits that have already been made. And related, you know, there is an article over on the information about creator related job postings spiking. And so interestingly enough creator relations and all these other roles are interfacing interacting with creators, also potentially being creator, a creator inside of these large companies were popping up all over the place, and so does a pretty decent amount of growth, not just as creators or in creator tech, but also in the roles and the other supporting functions around the space. So I think this is a part of the space, the creator economy that gets overlooked often. But there's a massive amount of support staff, and employees and contractors that are actually also engaged. And it's easy to maybe take that for granted. So I'm happy to see that this is, you know, happening more and more as well.

Gregarious Narain 19:03
So, in case you missed this link, we have so many links, by the way. This week, we had like, maybe 20 or 30 articles that we couldn't get to, Ken does curate a board over at Flipboard.com/@createdeconomy, if you want to check that out. All the links that we consider or think about in the course of a week, we put them over there, even if we can't cover them during our first part of the show. But certainly, we encourage you to take a look at them. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, follow us on Twitter because we share all those links out in real time as well. So we're about to move on to the next part. But this is your chance. By the way, the first opportunity if you want to speak up if you have a question, you have a comment, feel free to raise your hand. Come on up. Post your comment in the comment section over there. And we'd love to have you come in and share a little thought or two with us about some of the news that we just shared.

Ken Yeung 19:52
I think we have a couple of people in Clubhouse.

Gregarious Narain 19:55
Hi everyone. Hope you're still coming on up.

Interview

Gregarious Narain 20:27
Yeah, okay, sorry, Now's not the time for that. We'll have to do that later. Thank you. But we're gonna move everyone back to the audience so we can just jump into our interview. And I'm going to add you in now. Welcome, welcome. Alright, now, I know you said this the last time we were on -- we actually on a stream together, and I forgot how to pronounce it. I want to make sure I don't pronounce your name wrong.

Nicholena Moon 20:51
It's Nicholena.

Gregarious Narain 20:52
Nicholena, okay, for some reason I was like, wait, maybe it's a nish. And I might be saying it wrong, but I was like but I might be saying it right. Okay, Nicholena. Awesome. Well, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Nicholena Moon 21:02
Thank you for having me. Nice to see you again.

Gregarious Narain 21:04
Absolutely. And so, in case everyone hasn't met or seen Nicholena previously, she does a number of amazing and interesting things. But one of the things being that she is a Twitch streamer. And I was watching some of the game I don't play the game, so I don't actually understand what was going on entirely. But you do stream some live gaming things. More than one kind of game, right?

Nicholena Moon 21:34
I pretty much do one game.

Gregarious Narain 21:35
Oh, really? Yeah.

Nicholena Moon 21:37
Hearthstone. And Hearthstone has kind of like sub genres or like little sub games divided in it. So right now I played Battlegrounds, which is quite different from like the bank, the main game, but

Gregarious Narain 21:50
that was why I get close to somebody the whole time. Like, like a one off kind of thing. Right? But also you are the holder of your own rally creator coin, the Moon coin.

Nicholena Moon 22:02
Yep.

Gregarious Narain 22:03
And, you know, there's a lot of things that I'd love to chat about with you. But here's what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna give Ken a chance to effort first get the first question.

Gregarious Narain 22:12
Okay.

Ken Yeung 22:13
All right. So where to start? Alright, so can you Nicholena so I, I watched your I've been browsing through your videos on YouTube and on Twitch, and I think it was it's just the way you come across and explain how to play Hearthstone Battleground. And like, that was like, Oh my god, this is so captivating.

Nicholena Moon 22:36
Oh, thank you,

Gregarious Narain 22:37
How did you come across the site to kind of really focus to set up your stream around that. And you know, there's other people that have kind of done other things on Twitch and on YouTube and in terms of streaming, but how did you get your start in terms of that type of content? And like what have you learned about it that other creators can take away from it?

Nicholena Moon 23:00
Um just real quick. Do you mean specifically like educational content?

Ken Yeung 23:05
Yeah, I think, just in general, like when you I think because I think when you're playing a game like if you watch on Twitch, just play people that can play play a game and you watch them run around and either do strategy, shoot people whatever. But you're doing it a different level. You're not only showing education like oh, here's how you how you do this how you play this game. You're allowing people to watch you do it, which is what the fundamentals of Twitch is but like, how did you come across like this is what your audience really cares about?

Nicholena Moon 23:39
Okay, so when I first started streaming, I did start with Hearthstone. But I definitely just did the like, go live, play the game, get a high rank type of thing and interact with chat. And that was pretty much the limit. But I switched to Battlegrounds. And it was a new game well, a new mode within Hearthstone when it came out. And that's like immediately when I started playing it, like the day that it was released. And it took a while to learn the game. Right? And so everybody was kind of learning together and all that and once it got to

Gregarious Narain 24:10
Did you stream it right away, or did you just play kind of first?

Nicholena Moon 24:14
No, I just jumped right in streaming. No clue what I was doing. I had played like some other similar games in the genre, like the the League of Legends teamfight tactics one is pretty similar. And there's the Dota one as well. And then Hearthstone kind of came out with their own version of that, basically. And so I learned it on stream. And that was fun. And I did that for a while that I was just playing, trying to get better at it. But after a certain point, I realized that I wanted to grow my YouTube channel more and I started like looking around it, you know, other creators videos and stuff. And I realized that there was a huge lack of tutorial type content. Like there's basically none and there still isn't a lot I like mainly Myself and another creator that make this kind of video. But I've got so many people coming into my stream that had never seen the game and had no idea what's going on. Just like he said, no idea how to play. And they really wanted more specific advice on different strategies. So I felt like that was some, like a need that I could try to help fulfill. Yes.

Gregarious Narain 25:25
You mentioned you're on YouTube and Twitch, like, are you in your full time career, like, one of the things I think, you know, we want to have more creators like you on and part of that, I think, is just giving an insight into like, what a day in the life looks like, right? Like, how much do you stream per week? What do you do when you're not streaming? Right? Like, what is all that other time? And I know, there's some people who are like, always on, but there's a lot of people who are like, very scheduled. So yeah, what happens in the other time?

Nicholena Moon 25:56
Oh, man, well, there's definitely a lot of different types of streamers. Like you said, I'm personally for me, I'm absolutely horrible at keeping a set schedule. I think that streaming is really tied into personality, and you know, your mental health status, I guess, to phrase it that way. And what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for everybody. And, you know, the reason I left my nine to five job was honestly, partly because I just, I'm not the type of person that works well, under those conditions, like you'd have to work now. And this is exactly what you have to do. So I just don't feel very driven or happy unless I'm feeling that way. And I think for streamers extra important because you want your audience to see you happy and you know, positive and outgoing and everyday, you can't be like that at 9am, like on the.at least I can't. Yeah, and I'm also terrible actors. So I'm not good at like,

Gregarious Narain 26:58
being highly performative for somebody, right?

Nicholena Moon 27:01
Yeah, so my stream personality, I like to be really honest, and, but also don't like to be mad. And playing games can get pretty, pretty tilting sometimes. If they are seeing no randomness involved, like there is in Hearthstone but... So it varies by the month, like, I think the most amount of hours I streamed in a month was like 300 hours.

Gregarious Narain 27:26
300?

Nicholena Moon 27:27
Yeah. But that was a lot. And then I have months where I stream not even 100. And that's something that I want to work on myself, because it just has to do with inconsistency in like, real life and my moods and what's going on, but definitely something that I need to work on. Trying to stick to my schedule. But yeah, I guess, when I'm not streaming, I mean, taking care of real life stuff, like, you know, whatever appointments or phone calls or, or other things, I also play a lot of the game in my downtime, too, because it's sort of a thing, where if you don't play every day, you kind of get out of the loop, get out of practice. And then I feel like that sometimes. And sometimes you just want to try things out that you might not want to do on stream. So I play a lot. And then you know, I also consume a lot of other content last year, hang out with my cats, read that's my thing.

Gregarious Narain 28:30
And do you work with brands as well? Or do you merch? Like what's your I know, you're multi SKU, and in many ways, like in the way you generate your revenue? Can you tell us a little bit more about just about it? Like what's that picture? You know, and how did you much Iike Ken's question, I guess? How do you how do you discover the right thing for you before you know, like before you do it? Right, like, you know, I guess you develop a nose too. So

Nicholena Moon 28:55
I think it's really hard. And I feel still figuring that out probably like every day. What do I want to do? What I want to do with my life and my stream and my content? It's, I am a person with a ton of ideas. So I'm definitely like the jack of all trades, master of none kind of person where I like, always want to try something. And you know, I figured out if I like it that way, and if I do I continue with it if I don't, I'm also really obsessive. So when I pick something I'll just kind of like go really hard on that thing. Let's see. I think that about different revenue streams, I guess is the question. I have merged. I have. I mean, I have Twitch and YouTube but I don't really count that. subscribers I have. I used to have a eSports team but actually kind of just dissolved so about now I'm a free agent, team wise, but I do work with brands, some of which I got connected with through my team and some of which reached out to me. I worked with public.com a couple of months ago doing like, they do fractional investing. Yeah. And that was super interesting. I've worked with Verizon, I've worked with Uber Eats some other

Gregarious Narain 30:12
When you do that work, is it integrated, kind of into the content itself somehow? Or is it just producing things separately?

Nicholena Moon 30:22
Depends on really what the brand wants, right? So they usually will give you what, they you have a specific, very specific thing, every time that they want, and you get like a deliverables sheet with you know, these are the points you need to hit. And these are exactly what we want you to do. So it might be like, we want a Twitter post at this time of day, it has to include this hashtag or whatnot. Like, and when you play a sponsored game, it's a certain amount of hours at a certain time, a certain amount of shout outs, and that kind of thing.

Gregarious Narain 30:54
Do you say no? Like, how do you how do you know it's a good fit for your audience? You know, like, so like, if public.com comes to you and how do you know that's the right company? For my fans?

Nicholena Moon 31:04
Yeah, I do say no, a lot. Like because I there's a lot of emails I get the day that I turned down or some honestly I just don't respond to I get so many actually that I have this sort of weird test where if I don't respond, and I don't know the company, and I don't respond, if they don't send a follow up email, then they're not legit. And it's also if they don't include my name...

Gregarious Narain 31:28
If they have value, you should hold it. I'm with you on that.

Nicholena Moon 31:32
I mean, it just otherwise I can't you know, like I don't Yeah, yeah, but it's just a random like product or something. I almost never do it because I don't like trying to push like stuff like that on my community. But if it's a game I think they'll be interested in like the last one I did was for clay the game studio. They do. Don't Starve if you've heard that game. Yeah. The new game. So I played that stream because it's strategy involves I felt like it aligned pretty well with Hearthstone and what my viewers like,

Gregarious Narain 32:02
I have one last question for you. Have you ever gone to a brand because you like their product, though, right? Or you're like, I would love to work with you like is have you ever done that approach?

Nicholena Moon 32:15
I want to start doing that more for sure. Now that I feel that I have a lot to offer a brand that I think it's sort of scary as a creator because number one if you're in a more like the beginning stages of your, your your content or your career, you don't want to approach them, you know, get turned down or ignored. And then maybe in the future, if you got bigger, that would be awkward. I think that like for example, I really want to reach out to the chair share companies because this chair is super old enough.

Gregarious Narain 32:47
Y'all, y'all, we need to get a chair sponsor.

Nicholena Moon 32:51
I do so that I won this chair and like, at like six years ago. Um, I but I have done wonderful.

Gregarious Narain 32:59
It's not even purple, I mean.

Nicholena Moon 33:00
I know, and I hate red. It doesn't match anything. It's so loud, you could probably hear it. But yeah, I reached out to one and it was Rogue Energy because they did a sponsor of my team. And after the sponsor, I was like, Hey, I really like your product. And I would probably drink it every day anyway. Nice.

Ken Yeung 33:22
So Nicholena, so in terms of what you're talking about with getting inundated with all these pitches from brands, and you know, whether it's Uber Eats or anything like that, Are you handling that all yourself? The reason why I'm asking is last week, Matt Zuvella from FamePick, we were talking about how you know how some creators may need, like talent relations or talent management, like a CAA type of type of thing. Is that something that and thank you very much for highlighting that, Greg.

Gregarious Narain 33:58
There's a question for you.

Ken Yeung 34:02
That's an inside joke for people that weren't here last week so we can get rid of that but

Ken Yeung 34:07
No, Nicholena...

Gregarious Narain 34:09
I can't get it off screen

Ken Yeung 34:10
Really, really?

Nicholena Moon 34:13
I'm lost but okay.

Ken Yeung 34:16
So apparently, there's this whole thing about how I would go off and I don't know why I'm you know, shooting myself in the foot with this again,

Gregarious Narain 34:23
but you're saying how about you can make being a boxer.

Ken Yeung 34:25
Yes, I was. I would go and have like GoPros on me and I would go box people and then Greg suggested I box mountain, the mountain the guy who plays a crew game. Yeah. And you know, I would that would be my

Gregarious Narain 34:39
we would pay Yeah, see, see?

Nicholena Moon 34:42
Yeah, I'd watch.

Ken Yeung 34:47
Great. And this is where the show went downhill everybody.

Gregarious Narain 34:53
To Ken's point, I'd heard an interesting stat that like something like 90% of youtubers with more than 100,000 subs have right presentation. And, you know, I think there is this interesting middle ground to Ken's question, I think, right? Like, where around like after you go past that hobby stage to sort of being full time, like it's your career. You we don't always have like, like employees, but we have a team, right? We have like a lot of people around us that are helping so yeah. How do you get scale? I guess, as a creator now, you know, like going full time, like, what are your hacks or techniques for for scaling yourself?

Nicholena Moon 35:28
Hmm. Well, as far as like any kind of management, like, I don't have any, but I've been approached by a couple different kinds of agencies or things like that, but I'm just kind of leery of them most of the time, because I don't know what their motives are. And I don't know how credible they are reliable they are. So I also, it's sort of hard, because a lot of times as a curator, especially when you're in the starting to mid stages, you don't, you don't make a lot of money. Right? It's not like super lucrative when you first start out. In even like mid sized creators, it can be sort of tough, especially if you have other things like student loans, and, you know, whatever bills you have. So, agencies typically want like 30%. And from my perspective, I was always just like, I'll take the extra, you know, 10 minutes, every couple days, or to feel females myself, and it's not really worth giving someone else 30%. So I think that their fees are often just too high. And they usually don't bring that much to you. Because I've had an agent for like short periods of time. And then I usually just like leave, because they didn't really help me at all, to be honest.

Ken Yeung 36:36
So and in terms of like, kind of really owning your, your space. Right? I mean, you and this is something that I saw when you when you tweeted out that you were going to be on the show that you were talking about this kind of really owning your own economy. Right. And and this kind of gets to the to the heart of what was something I'm interested in is what motivated you to create the Moon coin? And how are you kind of integrating that with everything that you're doing? And what do you what is your end goal? What do you hope to achieve with that with that Rally coin

Gregarious Narain 37:13
Oh, and exactly explain what it is to just in case anyone out there doesn't

Nicholena Moon 37:16
know. Okay, so Rally is a platform where creators can mint their own crypto currencies, cryptocurrency token and it's a personal token is attached to you. And then your community can purchase that token. And rally has different ways which they're still adding and working on different integrations and uses for that, but they can redeem it for different perks or rewards or events or like products really, I pretty much the possibilities are kind of limitless there. But I was actually, in the first initial 10 creators, Twitch streamers, we were all that rally approach to start the project. And it was because I had worked with them. Previously on a Twitch extension, that was like a collectible streamer based card game. Reviewers could like you know, get the cards and then trade with each other below the stream. And, yes, they reached out to me, and they're like, Hey, we have this product and or this project that we're starting. At the time. I didn't know anything about crypto pretty much. Of course, I knew that it existed, but I didn't own any. I wasn't into it at all. But I was just like, I really liked rally from working with them before. So I was like, yeah, sure, you know, I'll be in, you count me in. And then at first, I honestly had no plans for it. And I didn't know what would happen with it. And I didn't know if it was going to be how much of a thing it was gonna be. But then, you know, it started getting bigger and more features were added to the platform. And my coin started just doing really well. And I was like, oh, wow, I should probably like provide some value here. Great. So I started racking my brain to try to think of things that I could do to make. Yeah, make the coin had value. Because I saw a lot of that it had a lot of potential. I finally realized. And

Nicholena Moon 39:12
Okay, wait, did I answer the question?

Ken Yeung 39:14
Yeah. Well, how do you integrate that with everything that you're doing?

Nicholena Moon 39:20
Right? Okay. So there's always been things that my community wanted me to do that I was never like, I didn't have the time to or I didn't see like, where it would benefit. The growth of the channel. Like certain things like holding tournament's and things like that. That's a lot of effort. Like not gonna, not gonna lie. I'm gonna be upfront about it. But the thing that's a lot of effort and time.

Gregarious Narain 39:45
By the way, your coin is killing, its nine dollars?

Nicholena Moon 39:47
Yeah, yeah, we're doing really well, this look at the rewards.

Gregarious Narain 39:51
For folks don't know how Rally works, so let me add a little note here for Nicholenabecause she's doing amazingly well actually. So our point is, it's about $9.28 Since that's like the U.S. kind of price to buy one, but more importantly is the way Rally works is actually the community gets a distribution every week on all this activity and trading. And because nicoline is actually creating these good incentives, and people are actually buying these coins and using them. You see this little number over here is 26.6k? That's what's gonna get distributed out to the members that hold these coins. Yeah, every day, this week, basically, it's like $15,000 being distributed to these folks.

Nicholena Moon 40:30
Yeah, every Saturday, so it should probably be over $15,000 by the time we get to Saturday, because that accrues hourly. And the amount that you receive is based on the percentage of the coin that you hold. So people that hold more of the coin are going to get more rally. But we're doing so well, because I actually have a discord now that I kind of recently created. I already had my own, like discord for my stream, and it had like 850 members in it. And so for that reason, I was like, Well, I don't know if I should make a whole new one. But then I figured if I'm going to put a lot more time and effort into the coin, which I am and have been doing and plan to continue to do. I didn't want to bog down the people that might not be interested. So we made our own. And it has like different roles for different amounts of coin that people hold different channels they can access based on the amount that they're holding. And what I did was, this worked really well. As you can see, by their words, we reminded everybody right after the wards where rewards were distributed to log into rally, and convert those rewards back into moon coin. And that would keep the coin you know, on an upward trajectory and keep us on the reward cycle. People do it and then people are doing Yeah, so we had so many people convert that probably hadn't even logged in before maybe again, but I think people just the simple reminder was super impactful. Really, really helped. So but I know

Gregarious Narain 42:02
Can you explain really quickly Nicholena how these work like so I bought this um, how your tiers in your campaigns?

Nicholena Moon 42:10
Um, yeah, so I think this is hasn't been used too much. Also, you can also in my Discord, just use a Discord command to do it. So I've had people just do it through Discord. So it's a little bit easier than going on to the site. You can just it's like a exclamation point, coin, donate. And then you put like five if you want to donate a sub or buy yourself a sub or buy one for someone else on Twitch. And they do that one live or not live, I've had both and oh, what happened there? Oh, someone sold 260. That thing that happened?

Gregarious Narain 42:45
Don't ever look at the charts.

Nicholena Moon 42:47
No, it's also related to Rally too, right? So it's each chart goes up and down. Not really related to the coin. But I figured that it might happen that some people might see that the coin is on like an upward path. And if they've been holding on to it for a while might get rid of kind of anticipated that. Yeah, but it's

Gregarious Narain 43:07
Yeah.

Nicholena Moon 43:08
Yes, exactly. So that is awesome. But now also that we're on the rewards, it could be sometimes random people coming in as well. And we'll have to see how that works out. Because when that happens, they end up just selling it. But I think that we have enough of a buffer zone, this time, that we will not be hurt too much by random people trying to influence it, which did happen to me. You know, in the past before I didn't really understand it. So I had like a sort of a hiccup during the growth of it, where some people just dumped massive amounts of it that were like speculating

Gregarious Narain 43:44
Early on in all coins like mine, mine had done that also gotten up to about 10 bucks. Yeah, we just saw these day traders just can't and we're like,

Nicholena Moon 43:53
Yeah, mine was like $16.

Gregarious Narain 43:56
It took me almost two months to get back to

Nicholena Moon 44:00
it maybe even longer. Because yeah, you have to wait for it to the balance equals out, a pain in the butt. But anyway, yeah, so then, since it's not directly integrated to twitch, you can't actually like really buy a Twitch subscription right through rally, so that I just go in and gifted the sub to them on Twitch when I see the redemption.

Gregarious Narain 44:20
And just to switch sort of channels or modes a bit here a bit. I'm curious, you know, we cover a lot of like, you know, we cover a lot of news in the creative economy, and we cover a lot of tools in the greater economy, I guess. We're always curious, like you as a creator, hearing all these startups and all these companies, you know, putting together tools and solutions, etc. Like, one How does it feel? I guess as a creator, it feels like, you know, how do you feel about all this activity kind of around your industry? And are there any tools or services that kind of stand out to you or areas maybe that you think people should be focusing on because you need more help.

Nicholena Moon 45:02
Hmm. Well, I was listening to the articles that you guys were talking about at the beginning of the stream. And I feel I feel a couple different ways about it, I guess. Number one, I'm not very, I'm not following that kind of thing very closely. Not really at all to be honest, because what it feels like to me sometimes is that companies really want they want to ride a wave, right? And they didn't create the wave, and they don't really want to do anything. I think you mentioned, one of you guys mentioned that those a lot of money probably isn't going to actual creators. It's going to people creating tools for creators, which like, yeah, that's cool. But

Gregarious Narain 45:42
A lot of the investment Yeah, for sure.

Nicholena Moon 45:44
That's cool. But we have already like a lot of tools. And I think that there's a lot of these things are probably just not going to end up doing anything or being useful or replacing any tools that we already have as creators. And it just makes me hesitant to put too much into like any really new thing. I mean, I'm, I'm with rally, but that's just like a super new field, right? It's not like, Oh, another video editing platform. I don't think anybody needs that kind of thing. Or another video sharing platform. I honestly really want to have less platform. There's too many, like, I don't want to make a tick tock and a YouTube and Instagram and Twitter and Twitch, those are I already have those five things. You know, it's I don't want to add a sixth platform, like ever. It's already something much work.

Ken Yeung 46:31
Well, what would be a big difference? What would be a differentiator, right? You're talking about, like, I think, for someone who, who's on social media, it's like, it's like, oh, why do I need to do TickTok and Instagram and Twitter? And like, I just like, I just, I want to stick with mine and be done with it. Right? It's been more What? You know, I'm a photographer. So why do I have to post on to Flickr? Why do I have to post on Instagram? I'd have to post on all these other things. But you, when you look at it, it's like what is for as a creator, Nicholena, what would a differentiator be for you?

Nicholena Moon 47:05
To join a new platform?

Ken Yeung 47:07
To join a new platform. I mean, I would imagine it'd be whatever cut you might get from it, or they that they might take from it. Right? For example, that that wouldn't be so you're saying like, if a streaming platform came in and said we're only taking 20% versus I believe what Twitch's, what 30?

Gregarious Narain 47:27
50%

Ken Yeung 47:28
50% like that wouldn't that would not be that big a key differentiator?

Nicholena Moon 47:33
It wouldn't, I wouldn't care about that at all, because I actually I'm going to have a different contract with Twitch, it's probably different for someone, but they're not taking 50% for me. So I guess that that's not a factor. Because at this point, for me, when I'm like a mid-sized creator, I guess it's really more about potential audience growth. So I don't think I would go to any new platform unless there was real and clear potential for them to bring more like an audience to me, the only thing I want is to expand my community. And yeah, that's really the only thing I'm interested in. And most of the time, new platforms just don't have that they don't have a built-in audience already there and you're supposed to bring your viewers to them. That's so beneficial for them. And it doesn't really do anything for you.

Ken Yeung 48:25
So these creator funds, like we were talking about earlier, like Facebook, investing a billion dollars, or well, I'm sorry, not investing. Well, there, they say they'll pay out a billion dollars to creators to use their platform to use your product. That wouldn't be necessarily an incentive for you that as you pointed out, that's more of an incentive for you to bring your audience to that. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicholena Moon 48:45
And I think they already did this. Like what, one or two years ago? I actually, right.

Gregarious Narain 48:50
Yeah, gaming in particular.

Nicholena Moon 48:53
I got offered a contract with Facebook, and I did not take it even though it was more than I was making off Twitch. However, it just such a steep decline in viewership. You're basically canceling your growth if you take that contract. I think it's just a bad decision. for everybody. Yeah, I think, um, especially because their platform is from all accounts not, you know, very well developed. Yeah. So I think it'd be a mistake for every creator, any creator to move over to Facebook, you know, if unless you're getting millions of dollars, okay, I get that you can. You probably a different consideration there. But yeah, for the most people it's,

Gregarious Narain 49:31
Well, I guess, like, you know, Mixer was this interesting experiment where they, you know, the same thing, it was just more throwing money at the problem, but they didn't. So you have the audience. Yeah, right.

Nicholena Moon 49:39
Right, exactly. That they're paying the creators to take a hit basically. Right. And you have to decide if your content creation is short-term thing, and then maybe you want to take this contract, then stop. Yeah, but other than that,

Gregarious Narain 49:55
So where do you need help? Like where could someone be building tools or solutions to help you be more successful?

Nicholena Moon 50:05
It's really tough. It's really hard. Right? Um, because Twitch, I think really just has everything that I would want at the moment. I think that that's a hard question, I really don't know, I think a lot of the focus is too much on like, oh, get brand sponsorships, or get this team or whatever. But that's not the important part like your audience is the important part, the quality of your content is the important part. And you have to be doing something different. That's also the important part, you can't just I think anymore on Twitch, just start playing a game without being like, top one, top two in the game, if you're not that, then you have to have something else that you're bringing to the table for people because there are so many options, and so many people with really established basis, but that doesn't mean that you can't, you know, grow because there are so many people and people don't just follow one creator, but I think what could they bring? Gosh,

Gregarious Narain 51:04
Oh, I'm sure you'll think of things, you know, I was just hearing you, My guess...

Nicholena Moon 51:11
Exposure?

Gregarious Narain 51:12
tends to be just things to help you scale as a person, like, take away some of the, you know, mundane tasks take away, you know, make it easier for you to do to be successful in the tasks you do have to do, you know, not in the game or not in the stream part. But just like, you know, I guess, you know, we're all becoming businesses to some degree, and there's just a lot of pieces, you know, in that process, right, which I personally don't want to have to do, either.

Nicholena Moon 51:36
Yeah. I think that if Facebook wanted me to come on and think and if they said like, hey, we'll put you on, like the front page of Facebook, and you know, millions of people will see you that would be like, yeah, that sounds good. You know what I mean? I think that would be valuable. Yeah.

Ken Yeung 51:57
That wouldn't obviously, even that would be just more like bribery to a certain degree, right? I mean, it's like, oh, what's up? And I used to, in this case, that when I used it earlier, I meant it is more like snark, but this time, it's more I don't mean it as negative, but it's like, you know, "Nicholena, yeah, we'll put you on at the top of everyone's News Feed." But that's not a permanent thing, you know, and then that's gonna be like, Oh, it's gonna be like, three months, we'll put you on there. And your mass, you know, you'll see your numbers rise. But then there's nothing to prevent Facebook, you know, saying, Okay, you know what, boom, like, Yeah, well, I know, you're on your way.

Nicholena Moon 52:34
I think at that point, then it's up to, it'd be up to me or any creator to convert those new audience members into followers on YouTube or followers on TikTok, or wherever else so that they would be able to continue to be a part of the community or join Discord. So I think that you know, if I'm not able to do that, then it's like on me.

Ken Yeung 52:55
How do see, you know, obviously, you have a huge channel on YouTube, you have a huge channel on Twitch, well, you could compare it to me, okay. I mean, you and I struggle. Yeah, well, I mean, you

Gregarious Narain 53:12
Hey, we have 25 subscribers we talking about?

Nicholena Moon 53:16
YouTube is hard to get the algorithm to notice you.

Ken Yeung 53:19
How do you view producing content for both? I mean, obviously, for Twitch, it's like when you're playing a game, you're live streaming, you know, obviously, that that makes sense. But, you know, when you're when you see your whole ecosystem of your online presence, how do you see yourself dividing up what content goes where, like, if you're on Facebook, you say, oh, subscribe to me on YouTube, or subscribe to me on Twitch or you just blast and say, subscribe to me. Here's where you follow me on the internet?

Nicholena Moon 53:50
Well, I don't know I'm not on Facebook at all, but I'm,

Ken Yeung 53:54
or anywhere else on social media?

Nicholena Moon 53:57
Yeah, I guess like I just do it in a way that I don't just say like a general call out, like, hey, randomly, just follow me. If I posted a piece of content that I worked on for a long time on YouTube on Twitter, I'll be like, "Hey, watch this video. It's I'm talking about this specific topic. And it might be interesting to you. And if you'd like it, subscribe."

Gregarious Narain 54:18
In your production models usually, Twitch first and then derivatives come into places, or do you make things especially for YouTube?

Nicholena Moon 54:26
I think the best way to grow on YouTube is native content, the content made just for YouTube because it's just such a different platform. It's more short form and then Twitch is really you know, long-form content and more just hanging out the chilling type of thing. And it's harder unless you're huge on Twitch right, then you can easily like to toss your followers over but for me, I've had I've struggled whenever I post like just gameplay from Twitch, it just never does nearly that well. But so I do a combination of both because making a YouTube video takes me so much time, it takes me like two days, at least of like doing nothing else, pretty much I've spent. I've spent over 10 hours on some of my videos. I probably more I think I'm just lowering it to nuts. I probably spent like 16 hours watching some videos. But yeah, and then those do so much better. But I just can't do that every day or even every week,

Gregarious Narain 55:26
Maybe that's one of the opportunities for someone to figure out how to help you.

Nicholena Moon 55:29
Yeah, there's so much work that goes into it. You mean you have to have the idea. You have to script it, you have to do research. If it's instructional, you have to film it, you have to edit it. And everything. It takes a long time, for sure. And I'm hard-pressed to see how someone could help me with any of that. Really?

Gregarious Narain 55:46
Yeah, I get that I get that. Yeah, boy, it's a creative process. Right. And so, you know, it's part of why you're a creator that wants to create. And so the idea of outsourcing it I certainly understand is, is not it's not an optimal experience, I would imagine, right?

Nicholena Moon 56:03
Yeah. And I've had, I do have someone that edits my gameplay videos, you know, just chops them up and puts them on YouTube. So I do have that, which is really nice. But any of the real, time, and effort-intensive videos, I just added them myself because I find that when someone else does it, they just want to get it done as quickly as possible. And they just don't put near the amount of time because they're not invested in it. And it doesn't come out well. And then I'm like,

Gregarious Narain 56:31
Well, we're just about up on time, and we appreciate you taking time out of your day to be with us.

Nicholena Moon 56:36
Thank you for having me.

Gregarious Narain 56:37
Before we go, I guess like what's next for your channel, though? Or where are you going next and any interesting plans you want to share with us or promote or to let our folks know, though,

Nicholena Moon 56:47
Um, this is still in the works. But I want Moon coin to have a value for people beyond just Hearthstone because obviously, that use is pretty limited. So I'm working on a couple of different things, you were talking about, like classes and seminars and things like that, I really want to kind of make my own series of lectures or whether general and personalized probably one-on-one critiques and like help sessions for creators that want to grow. And I'm also working on an I'm working on producing my own music and also gathering other musicians that want to make their music available to create other creators to use outside of DMCA stuff that I'm going to tie in with Moon coin whether or not that's like a one-time access fee or a monthly thing or a holder benefit. I'm not sure yet. But I'm working on that project and I'm super excited about that. I always love music and yeah, I think it's gonna be really fun. Yeah.

Gregarious Narain 57:49
I forgot to ask if there are any questions. By the way. I know we have some folks in clubhouse listening. If you have a question for Nicholena,, feel free to raise your hand or shoot me a DM so we can try to answer it. Or see if we can get an answer.

Nicholena Moon 58:02
And feel free to join my Moon corn Discord if you want.

Gregarious Narain 58:04
Absolutely. Oh, do you want to send us your private chat there and I will throw it up for you? Yeah, I find joining Discord to be one of the most complicated tasks in the world.

Nicholena Moon 58:15
It kind of is. See, I think I have about a million invites that are just active. So I ended up making a new one every time.

Gregarious Narain 58:26
Oh, interesting. Okay, gotcha.

Nicholena Moon 58:32
Okay, I think that still works. So this should be an infinite, no expiration link. I don't have a custom URL for this Discord yet, because we're not it's not that large. https://discord.com/invite/mMA4auVXmE

Gregarious Narain 58:45
Ken, can you do it?

Ken Yeung 58:46
Yep.

Nicholena Moon 58:47
But we do have about I was gonna say 156 members, and 150 Moon coin holders in it right now.

Gregarious Narain 58:53
Oh, man, that's amazing.

Nicholena Moon 58:54
Yeah, it's growing really well, doing nice. Happy about it.

Gregarious Narain 58:58
So if you're interested, we are going to flash that URL out and if you, Ken,, we can send it out in the comments as well.

Nicholena Moon 59:04
Yeah,

Ken Yeung 59:04
Absolutely.

Gregarious Narain 59:05
Yeah, Ken's just added a note on screen if you're watching and if you're

Nicholena Moon 59:10
Sorry that URL is ugly.

Ken Yeung 59:11
Oh, no worries.

Ken Yeung 59:14
Don't worry, everything else will shorten it to something else uglier, so but thank you. So Nicholena, we do appreciate it. Congrats on the coin. Amazing. I really love, like seeing and talking to someone who's got a vibrant community who's actually like, deeply engaged. We'd love to get you to, I don't know if you have time, but we are about to jump into our after-show. It'll be on Zealous which is actually my startup, which is helping creators monetize their live streams if you want to check it out. But always welcome to join us. But we will be moving over. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. We'll see you in after dark and just a few minutes then. Oh, sorry. I'm like a terrible person. What do I need the deck here don't I, Ken? Why is it doing that?

Ken Yeung 1:00:02
I don't know. You want me front and center, I guess.

Gregarious Narain 1:00:03
I guess that's supposed to. But there we go. So yeah, we're about to head over to the after-show. If you're interested in joining us, you could join us at created.show/live. That is the official after-show. So it's an opportunity for you to come on stage. If you want to find out why Ken should become a boxer, it's a great place to go as well. But yeah, it's an interactive experience. Everyone can join us on video just like you might on clubhouse and feel free to come and we will talk about the topics from today's show. And we will give you a chance to sort of experience you know, my new software as well. Before we do close up here though, Ken you share that link out as well? I think you did already. One last thing, just clicking on the wrong window all the time. Just upcoming next week. We do have Fernando Parnes from Superfans on July 21, we've been waiting a long time to have Fernando one week after July 28. We have Steven and Antonio coming from the Black creator crew will be often on August 4. And then we have Jim Louderback on August 11 here to talk about VidCon one of the best conferences for creators out there. August 18th, we have our friend and creator James Hicks joining us as well from hicks new media. And I did just confirm our 25th, but I will add that in for next. But if you do want to be our guests head over to createdeconomy.com, there's a link there to apply to be a guest of the show. And we'd love to see you soon. So thank you all make sure you head over to created.show/live. That'll give you an opportunity to join in for Created After Dark. And we look forward to seeing you here this week. And we will see you next week as well. Thank you so much. Have a great one, Ken, anything else before we go?

Ken Yeung 1:01:45
Nope, that's it. Thanks very much. Thank you, Nicholena for joining us, and we will see you in the after-show.

Gregarious Narain 1:01:52
All righty. Bye, everybody. We'll see you over there.