Episode 7: July 7, 2021

Gregarious Narain 0:05
Welcome back to the Created Economy, it's our weekly news show on everything happening in the creative economy. We cover the latest news, provide commentary, and we have some great interviews and guests and of course, we will deep dive onto topics that are interesting and relevant to creators everywhere as well as startups and founders and investors building for the creator economy. We do go live on Wednesdays at 3 pm we try to be here as regularly as possible. But you know, sometimes we have a life and we have to go outside.

Gregarious Narain 0:33
But in case you want more, you can find out more over at created.show. It's the official Show page for the show. It provides links to all our upcoming episodes, feel free to ask us questions, post ideas for topics that we might want to have. We also live-streamed simultaneously. So if you hearing us right now, or if you're watching in the future and want to join back later, we're on Facebook, YouTube, Twitch, Clubhouse, and Twitter Spaces all at the same time, we will have our after show Created After Dark in about an hour that will be running created. Well, we'll share a link to it later on. We also do post longer-form content though. So if you want to find the transcripts, the show notes, or want to link to something head over to CreatedEconomy.com, that's the official site for all of our content. Thank you, everybody I see joining here in Clubhouse. I know it's a little awkward, but we will give you a chance to raise your hands. So just some to play along. First 10 minutes or so we will do the news. After that. We'll give you all a chance to chime in. And then we're going to have our interview with Matt from fame pick. And then after that, you'll have a chance to ask Matt questions as well. So stick around. There's a lot of audience participation throughout the day. So excited to have you going, Ken, how are you doing my friend? I've got

Ken Yeung 1:41
I'm doing well.

Ken Yeung 1:44
Doing well, doing well. Thanks for coming back for another show episode seven. So this should be a great one. I mean, we've talked about podcasting. We talked about SMS, we've talked about NFT's, which I mean, we're talking about creator, the creator economy, and creators influencers? Why not talk about how to manage it, manage all of it, manage, you know, your relationships with brands and potential sponsors opportunities, and how to really, you know, take, to elevate it to an actual business. I mean, if we're talking we've been talking about in past weeks, about how companies are, are about how influencers creators are struggling to make ends meet and make a living off of producing content. So why not have somebody on the show who can help us figure that out? And I'm looking forward to having Matt from FamePick, tell us more about it.

Gregarious Narain 2:36
Awesome. Well, it's gonna be fun. But before we do that, we need to dive into the news. We've got a lot of news this week. So we're gonna go fast. All right, I promise. Oh, by the way, in case you are listening and not watching the stream, you can follow along by following us on Twitter at @CreatedEconomy. Ken live tweets out all the links that we actually share. And we also do have a Flipboard where all the links that we've looked at are considered for the week are available. So we'll see you over there if you want to get those links in real-time. Um, I forgot to add a slide for that. So yeah, follow us on

Gregarious Narain 3:09
All right. Let's get Yeah, it's gonna we had a week or. no, we didn't. Alright.

Ken Yeung 3:14
Are you okay? Who puts something special in your tea today? I mean,

Gregarious Narain 3:21
On to the news. Ken, I think you're first.

Ken Yeung 3:23
Exactly. Alright, so why don't we move on to the next slide here, Greg. There you go. All right. So TikTok is kind of everywhere these days. So this time around, they are there have been reports that they are producing a version to take on Cameo. Now for those that are not really familiar with Cameo, it's this way where creators can get paid to do shout-outs, to send out messages to people, and actually, it's turned out to be pretty doing pretty well for Cameo. So TikTok's like look, hold my beer, we're going to do it ourselves. And unironically, it's going to be called Shout Outs and so this would be a fun way for creators to do that. You know, TikTok has this great audience and a lot of creators on there, so why not help them further monetize this? So it'd be really interesting to see how this works out. Actually, a long time ago, one of my bosses sent me a Cameo shout-out from Omarosa on landing a buying my first house so that was pretty interesting and surprising, to say the least. So I'll be very now will these shout outs from TikTok will you wind up getting you to know dance tutorials we have a little bit more flair to them. And whatnot. So who knows when shout-outs will come out but looking forward to seeing what people do. And Greg, how much would you charge for a shout-out on TikTok?

Gregarious Narain 4:50
Is there such a thing as negative dollars?

Ken Yeung 4:54
So I gotta pay you to give me a shout-out. Is that what you're saying?

Gregarious Narain 4:58
sounds right. Okay. All right. This is new, thank you for that, Ken, I am excited to see and I think TikTokers do need more monetization methods. So it's good to see them happening. We are going to be featuring more community posts as well. I press you to put this later because there's a lot in here. But I'm going to go through these really fast because there are some great articles and thought leadership posts that come out from the community. A lot of these come from the "Means of Creation" Discord, also from stuff we follow on Twitter, and also the passion economy powers as well. So if you're interested in any of these articles, we will provide links to them afterward. Li Jin and Nathan Bashez and Yash Bagal had a post over last week, I think it was last week called the "Creator MBA" really drives into a sort of a lot of the economics and sort of the evolving businesses and the opportunities in the creator economy as creators move from sort of being hobbyist into careerists, and ultimately to entrepreneurs. So I would give that a read if you get a chance. There was another great post by Yang from the means of creation discord, on why the creator economy won't replace the attention economy. So I think you know what I really liked about it, he has a graphic where he actually tried to visualize and add another layer of dimension into the monetization methods. So I highly recommend giving that article a read. He talks about some interesting ideas about the sort of like why intention is still attention is still king. And I think it makes some great points, especially you know, just this idea that there's still a finite amount of attention. So it doesn't matter if we're creating more, you still have to garner the attention to be successful ultimately, there, Nacho Giorgis, I forgot I'm probably missing up his name, but he did put up a post or an interesting article about sort of the idea of creator run accelerators to receive more and more creators sort of making this transition over to starting to become an angel investor. I think Li Jin is actually running a program, which is teaching creators how to be angels. So these creators run accelerators, he sort of posits sort of this idea sort of riffing on this idea that the barstool founders, with a sort of launched sort of an accelerator of sorts. And so um, another good read from that space. And the last one that I'll bring up and also one I think, like Matt and I will probably have lots to riff on later is are some How can creators work together and split revenue. This actually came from Anna in the "Means of Creation" Discord, but it's a video along with some commentary and posts as well. So we'll provide all those links as well for you if you're following on the video or on Twitter, but lots of great content if you have an article out there that you're writing or thought leadership piece you're putting together, we'd love to help promote it. So send it to us, and we'll give you a chance to get it featured in the show in a future episode. So, Ken, you're up next.

Ken Yeung 7:45
All right, so along those lines of talking to Matt, I mean, Good Lord, I think basically the next 30 minutes or could be like just be Matt chiming in on what's going on with the news here. So a recent Supreme Court ruling now this is midnight seems this might not seem like what creator news but actually it is because its Supreme Court ruling has allowed the mandate that the NCAA can't prohibit college athletes from monetizing their likeness. So the NCAA is like or fine we passed this rule that athletes can make money off of their name their image or likeness. And immediately days later, a bunch of athletes is starting out and they're going to you know, basically create their own business and that involves you know, it's going on sites like Cameo going and making money off of them going into things like sponsorships with like EA and other brands too and look this is they're becoming influencers in their own right in a now legal fashion. Now remember, in college, they were like, "Oh, you can't actually make money off of it, we can give you sponsor a scholarship or their

Gregarious Narain 8:56
Ken, was it 100,000 or something?

Ken Yeung 8:59
Influencers or athletes?

Gregarious Narain 9:00
Athletes were like a massive number

Ken Yeung 9:03
Well, I mean, this is for any athlete, right? So obviously those that are going to that are that are featured prominently in games like an EA that any of the EA games, anything that you know, whether they win like, you know, the national championship or anything like that they can make, they can actually make bank off of this. And especially with those that have been stripped from their Heisman Trophy, such as Reggie Bush and colleges that have been penalized because of some of their athletes getting compensated when this rule was in place to prohibit them from actually making money. All that's going have fallen by the wayside. And now, you know, this is a brand new world for athletes. So we'll see what's going on and very interesting to see how this opens up an opportunity for Matt and FamePick and others in the space.

Ken Yeung 9:55
And now onto this next one. Speaking of monetization, you know, we're talking about startups here that are in the creator space, and Pietra here just raised $15 million. And their whole I guess, their, strategy, their objective is to help creators make money actually produce tangible products based on you know, that that are lined up. So it's almost like, you know, Oprah saying, Oh, I'm just going to lend my lane for whatever, for this product, or we're Krusty the Clown lending his likeness to, Krusty burger or whatever.

Gregarious Narain 10:31
I mean, this is kind of a real person, right?

Ken Yeung 10:34
No, he's not shut up. I mean,

Gregarious Narain 10:38
What I found interesting about this article was that weren't these guys like a jewelry store or something online? I think Matt and I were joking about this somewhere.

Ken Yeung 10:45
They probably were. But if you look at it, I mean, the trend, though, I mean, a few weeks ago, we're talking about how YouTube was toying around with maybe allowing, forming some sort of a merchandising line for creators, right? And so not only are these, you know, it's like, these are just additional ways for creators to monetize their work. I know, like, you can basically take a shot every time I'm saying the word monetize, but that's basically the name of the game. It's like, it's not just digital content anymore, it's going to be physical and offline, to kind of really help too, to bridge that gap and help with the brand recognition.

Ken Yeung 11:20
And now with the next one here, you're talking about this, this, there's a report from CB Insights, which does phenomenal reports all the time. But this one caught my eye because it's, it kind of raises a point in my mind about like, you look at things like Clubhouse, you look at things like Substack, and everything like that. And you're like, Oh, this is great upgrade good opportunities for creators to, to do to set off and not be and basically own their own properties, so to speak. But what's actually stopping Facebook, Google/YouTube, Twitter, Snap, and all these other companies from coming in and doing the same thing and taking over right. earlier on, we're talking about how TikTok is looking at a Cameo-like feature. So what is it about a cameo that is defensible? Like what is it about? You know, the what we're talking about with last week with Subtext what is defensible about that what is defensible, about whatever, you know, a bunch of the other startups that are out there that we that, you know, we we've talked about. And it's you look at this chart here. And there's a lot of incentive for these big tech companies to pay attention. Because if you look at the pandemic, and this is where a lot of the usage a lot of creators are, there's been a lot of uptick in TikTok and Reddit and Pinterest. well beyond what you'd see in growth and what you see with Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, Instagram, and earlier on, we talked about how Facebook properties kind of really were the thing for brands to reach their users. What's happening now? So it'd be very fascinating to see what happens next in terms of that.

Gregarious Narain 12:56
And I think you're right, though, there, there is low defensibility there are some attributes, I think that is interesting. But maybe all these companies are designed for acquisition, to begin with, I guess. The Information has a good article, by the way, called, you know, says the rise of influencer-led courses how one YouTuber makes $25,000 a month. You know, I think what this really was pointing out, I think I was tweeted about this, but just that there was um, so like, the largest amount raised by a creator, quote-unquote, creator company was actually Kajabi raised like $550 million or something last year. And, you know, courses are an interesting thing. And it's a concept I'd love to also talk about with Matt because we've been sort of having this discussion, slow-going discussion. These are the kinds of things that usually do like some kind of tweet thread. But you know, this idea of like a bottoms-up sort of creator and like someone working with the notion that their goal or destination is actually a course as opposed to necessarily if ik a very large audience, whereas I think traditionally, or historically, we've seen, like, creative businesses oriented around creating, generating very large audiences. But now maybe people are saying their aspirations in a different place. But, of course, making is certainly an interesting thing. And I'm a strong believer in the idea that everyone has their there are many different ways to teach things. And so there are an infinite number of teachers in the world.

Gregarious Narain 14:15
In one other article, last week, Karat, announced that they raised $26 million in their Series A, they are building a banking platform as well. I think I've mentioned this in the past, full disclosure, you know, I run a product company called Creator Cash, which is also a banking platform we launched about a month ago. So we actually issue bank accounts today, not in the future, but I think this space is very interesting. And folks are still working, they're doing their best to try to differentiate and see how can we make a bank for creators so I would keep watching this for sure.

Gregarious Narain 14:48
Thank you. That was our new segment. By the way. If you want to catch any of this news, you can head over to our Flipboard where Ken is fervently sorting of storing away every article that we look at, we do examine thousands of pieces It feels like in between, like we start, like almost a minute the show is overlooking for new things. But there's a lot of new stuff out there. So head over to Flipboard.com/@CreatedEconomy. if you want to check that out. So we're about to dive into the interview. So let's get Matt in here. We've got our friend Matt Zuvella from FamePick. But Matt, before we do your intro, let's just chat about any reactions any to news articles or any of your thoughts there?

The Interview

Matt Zuvella 15:29
Yeah, that was one heck of a week of news. Yeah. I would say quite a few reactions. I mean, what do you guys want to start?

Gregarious Narain 15:38
Pick your favorite?

Matt Zuvella 15:40
I think the TikTok, you know, copying Cameo, I would say the most interesting to me. Because, you know, we've seen social media platforms copy everybody Left and Right, right. I mean, the most famous one, I think his Facebook, Instagram copying Snap with the stories. But this is the first time I would say a major platform is copying, like a unique monetization tool like everyone's copy, you know, tipping of some kind. But copying, I don't think Cameo is a startup anymore. But you know, that one's the most interesting to me, because Facebook, Instagram always feels like they take a long time to copy products, they beta test forever. You know, they announced it forever.

Gregarious Narain 16:25
Didn't it used to feel like that, but now not so much. Maybe?

Matt Zuvella 16:29
I think Twitter is trying to change that. Right? Twitter's moved very quickly with a lot of their latest product.

Gregarious Narain 16:35
Yeah, I mean, but like Facebook came out like are basically has an audio app already. I mean, they have like a newsletter tool, right? Like they have all these pieces. And I remember hearing about the Facebook influencer or Instagram influencer program probably like seven years ago, and I still never really fully saw launch. Right? Yeah.

Matt Zuvella 16:52
So I think Twitter's leading the way, maybe there's definitely change.

Gregarious Narain 16:55
Twitter's definitely testing in the market out there. By the way, if you're listening out there in clubhouse or on Twitter spaces, feel free to raise your hand if you have a comment or thought on one of the stories that we shared. We will give you another chance at the end of the show as well to come and ask Matt questions. But while we do that, Matt, why don't you give us a quick moment and tell us a little bit about who you are? And you know what you do and what makes you special?

Matt Zuvella 17:19
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you guys, Greg, Ken having me on the show, appreciate it, love the show. I love the style and the format too a lot always been a huge fan of more you know interaction with fans and and getting the email that was always my number one comment on Clubhouses I want to interact with everybody so appreciate you having me on. Yeah, I mean quick background on myself. I've been in the creator space I would say for six, seven years now. Got my got my start and actually mobile gaming used to make mobile games with celebrities. So that's kind of how I got introduced to the whole influencer marketing endorsement area. My claim to fame was we did a really terrible game with Tyga, the rapper. It was like an endless runner. It was awful like a straight clone of like, what was the Temple Run game? Yeah. Running through the streets. It was really really bad with the tiger.

Ken Yeung 18:20
You should relaunch that for for VR now.

Matt Zuvella 18:24
I wonder if it's still out. I doubt it. He had, I don't know how many millions he had. I mean, we're talking this is like 2014 probably. And anytime he would tweet, because we've launched events in the game, anytime he would tweet, it would get like 7, 10 50,000 downloads, depending on what time of day he was tweeting. We're like, "Holy smokes," right? That's you know, if your performance marketer you know, we were paying four to six, seven dollars a game you're like, this is what's thousands of dollars. I think that was kind of the first like wow, these guys influencers have power if you use it the right way. So that was kind of like the a-ha moment. At least in my career of, hey, I want to really do this because I think celebrities and now that we've seen creators, the Mr. Beast and the Jake Paul's become celebrities in their own right. I think everyone's seen the power that they have when they make one tweet or one post or one video.

Gregarious Narain 19:24
Yeah. Now and tell us like so what about what is FamePick and tell us what, what what you're doing now? Yeah, so

Matt Zuvella 19:31
We originally launched it as a celebrity endorsement network, very similar to like an Aspire IQ or CreatorIQ, right. We wanted to allow brands to partner with these celebrities and run campaigns. And that kind of morphed like FameBit was able to raise money on that. We learned very quickly that we didn't want to service the brand side we want to service the creator side. And the celebrities weren't really the type because they were making so much money as it was to movies or TVs we didn't, you know, they have probably been serviced enough. So we kind of pivoted into what FamePick is now. And that's a creator platform and agency and a hybrid. It's like a agency built on tech, which a lot agencies, you guys have ever worked with one? Yeah, there's no, there's no tech out of the agency that is still sending faxes and emailing over rates. And so yeah, today, we we have a platform that helps creators monetize themselves, not with essentially tools, which a lot of people have gone after. But in more of the traditional endorsement way, right, partnering with brands, partnering with companies, partnering with local companies to run some type of sponsorship stuff. So they can kind of be their own agent in a way. And then those that don't want to be their own agent, which a lot of them don't,

Gregarious Narain 19:31
Yeah

Matt Zuvella 19:52
We are an agency ourselves. So we represent people on the social media side, and help them with brand deals and boxing events. And now the sky's the limit, right? What's next?

Gregarious Narain 21:06
Do you have multiple revenue models then? Like so like, is that as a separate function when you take on a creator like or as their say, as their agent? And is that Exclusive? Or is that kind of ad hoc, and it just sort of like as things come in, you can try to funnel things?

Matt Zuvella 21:23
So we we built it, like, we tried to do it full circle, like the platforms used to kind of draw people in, like, we have a Lincoln bio tool, we have a media kit tool, we have some type of Cameo tool as well. And so, you know, creators will come in organically and sign up and, you know, ones that kind of have some will reach out some my sales team, my talent team will reach out. Let me ask you, "hey, we see you do XYZ, do you have a type of representation?" We kind of make our pitch, right?

Gregarious Narain 21:52
Yeah.

Matt Zuvella 21:53
And for a lot of guys, it's simply they don't want to do the negotiating part. with brands and partners, it's like, to be honest, it's kind of ugly at times, right? It's, it's a lot of contract work. It's a lot of you got to read through legal jargon, you got to make sure you're not signing your life away. Yeah, that's, that's kind of how it is built, like so we monetize in the traditional agency fee way, we also have a platform where you can upgrade to get different features, as you would see a lot of other social platforms. The main way, you know we want to help creators in the future is to the agency. That's how we built the platform, like one of our talent managers can manage close to 100 talent. In like a traditional sense, outside of maybe CAA like, that's really hard to do traditional manager maybe advantages 10 to 15 talent,

Ken Yeung 22:47
in that there is a good thing you brought up CAA because that's why as you were talking it almost made it seem like are you creating the CAA for the creator economy. Now and obviously, there's a bunch of in Los Angeles and Hollywood and entertainment space, there's obviously a lot of agencies, talent agencies in the traditional sense. But you don't necessarily see a whole lot in that are geared specifically for creators. I think the early creators that want to be represented are probably going to the traditional agencies to treasure traditional talent agencies. So what is it that you're doing? I know you're talking about that your hybrid between an agency and with power with the foundation of tech? Oh, you give them all give the creators all these tools, but what is it that's separating you from everybody else? And can you kind of elaborate what you mean when you say like a redefined influencer marketing, like what is that? What is your approach to that?

Matt Zuvella 23:51
Yeah, great question, Ken. So, traditionally, like a CAA type of agency, or WME or UTA, they're all usually built on like old school media, right? Usually TV. Now, obviously, some have morphed into this industry, because that's what they see the money going. So a lot of that is as old school, I would say endorsements like that. Guest appearance, TV show appearance. And obviously, the CAA's job is like, you know, if you're a sports agent, you gotta negotiate their main contract with whatever professional league they're, or if you're a movie star, you're negotiating for the next acting job, right? So I wouldn't say I mean, there are I'm not gonna say there's not, but there's not many that are geared towards creators usually because the industry is not that old. Yeah. And, you know, not many, I would say big creators have understood how to make consistent money. But I think that's, as you guys covered in the news section is what everyone's trying to help creators do now. Creators can maybe make a couple 100 bucks but,

Gregarious Narain 24:55
Matt, maybe part of why that's been those. There's been a lot of money I mean, I think the mark industry is only estimated like 15 billion or something, right, like in influencer marketing. But you know, a lot of that's top loaded, right? Like a very, very small number of people actually earn a significant amount of it. Have you seen it? What's the trend line been, I guess, relative to like, when someone's viable, right for some of these opportunities, right? Because, you know, in the past, you remember, as I mentioned earlier, there used to always be a race to the top, get as big as possible. And I think like, most people would like to have larger audiences. Right? But you know, is there a new normal, like, starting point, like, you know, can someone monetize with like, 100 users or 100? followers?

Matt Zuvella 25:42
I wouldn't put a number on it, like, internally?

Gregarious Narain 25:45
I guess a range. Like, you know, is it

Matt Zuvella 25:46
Yeah, platform too, right.

Gregarious Narain 25:49
Yeah. Okay. So yeah. And any pointers in that arena? That you shouldn't or couldn't? Right? It's just more like, what's normative, I guess. I mean,

Matt Zuvella 25:58
We have one of the users on our platform monetizes with 5,000 fans on Instagram. she does, she does an incredible job. I mean, she makes more money than some guys with a million fans just because, you know, she's kind of very niche with her product and she kind of knows how to sell, so to speak. Versus, you know, maybe just appear like a content creator. But I would say like, as a general rule of thumb, you know, if you really want to make a living as a creator, I would say it's around 100,000 fans on a normal, you know, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok platform. Now, if you started to get into the, you know, only fans of the world, of course, building up the world, that's a lot different, right? That's Yeah, you know, you just need a couple 100 payments. Right to make that work?

Gregarious Narain 26:43
Yeah. And are the dollars increasing? Like, from your, from where you guys see things? Or is it sort of like, people are doing more things with more people, so that like, the actual dollars are smaller, like average contract value kind of thing.

Matt Zuvella 26:58
The overall value is gone way up since its interested pandemic has become, but I mean, as you know, probably a lot of the listeners and you guys are aware, there's a really, I would say, tragic trends in the creator economy of gifting, right, of seeding. That's where brands are not wanting to spend money with, with influencers, with creators, but they want to gift them something in exchange for content. I see. I think, personally, that's the number one problem in the entire economy is like, if you if you really want to help creators make money, you would help fight and get rid of that, because the brands are always going to control the money, they're always going to control the industry, no matter what platform launches, the majority of money is always going to be made by brands partnering some type of thing with a creator. How much do we move past that? Yeah, yeah, I think that's what's holding me back.

Ken Yeung 27:55
How much hand holding does FamePick do with creators? I mean, you talk about there, there are those that have, like, maybe, you know, five, like 5,000 people, fan followers on Instagram, or 10,000 followers on Twitter, but like a million followers on TikTok, or so on and so forth? Do you how far like how much a hand holding in terms of helping them understand how to how to monetize themselves from a strategic standpoint do you get involved in right? Or are you more like, we will help connect you from an agency standpoint, creator to here's the here's these brands that are offering some sort of RFP, or some sort of, they want to, you know, do want to reach out to this, this demographic, so we think you can fit into there, would you? Or would you help these creators and say, "Okay, I think this is, this is what we think you should be creating this is the type of ideas and stuff that you should be doing producing in terms of your work." Like, how intimate of a relationship Are you getting with these creators in terms of, you know, helping them to sustain to create some sort of something sustainable?

Matt Zuvella 29:06
I would say it varies, I mean, the majority of our work is, is brand negotiating a brand deal negotiating. And we really try to help them understand their audience. Meaning like, one of our tools, on the platform is just a simple, kind of a questionnaire tool, which seems simple to make, right? People can use Google, or they can use type form. But a lot of the creators, they don't, they don't know that stuff. And so we, you know, we have a simple tool where they can kind of quiz their audience so they can really understand like, like demographics, or one thing, right, every platform can kind of see or I can read your analytics, but you know, answering questions on like, you know, what was your favorite tweet of mine? What was your, you know, where are you from? Where are you located? How much money do you make, like there's a lot of like, real questions you can use as a creator, to help build almost anything within your audience. I'd say that's those are the Two things we help, I wouldn't say we help with content creation unless it's for some type of partnership. We just leave that to them unless they ask us, right? They say, Hey, what do you see that's trending? Or, you know, what new platform? Should I get on? Then we'll help. But I think the majority of our work, is those kind of two elements.

Gregarious Narain 30:19
Do you facilitate collabs as well, between like, multiple creators on the platform?

Matt Zuvella 30:25
Especially if it involves a brand, or, you know, the specific creators trying to get in touch with another creator, we can maybe get a hold of their agent and make that happen?

Gregarious Narain 30:33
How are you seeing, splits working or evolving, I guess, as we move forward, because some people are, you know, like, completely, like, splits or, you know, collaborative future, you know, the creative space, etc. And I don't know if I quite believe that. I mean, I think they've always been there. And I think they'll be there as much as they've been there. But, you know, have you are you seeing how one of the articles we posted from Anna was actually about, like sort of how they were trying to develop a better fairer model for doing splits. You know, and sometimes he's sort of like, you know, it's like the founders with the whole, like, slicing the pie kind of thing. You know, obviously, with creator content, it can be a lot more performative. And it can be also a lot more instrumented. So can you explain a little bit about how like splits are sort of like, are some of the things that you're seeing in that arena?

Matt Zuvella 31:25
I mean, I've done I don't know that amount. I think I've done 2,000, maybe 2,500 brand deals in my life, sometimes. Do partnerships show? I have done maybe three splits ever. So, I mean, I get it. There's a lot of companies that think that's the future. I think that's very, very YouTube heavy. Yeah. Because that's, that's the main platform that splits revenue, in essence. So outside of that, I would say splits are worth near zero. I don't think that's a feature of anything, I think on YouTube itself that can get really interesting. I don't think creators are out there looking to do that. I think the collaboration is going to have happened organically, right? They love to collaborate.

Gregarious Narain 32:11
For sure. Yeah, I do think there's like the the Jay Z sort of, like, bring it up the new. The new folks, I there probably is a business model in there, you know, like, of someone being like, kind of like, king or queen maker kind of thing. I'm not sure how many people could pull it off, though, honestly, right. Maybe in medium size domains, you know, like to large domains, but like the small, like a lot of creators succeed by being in niches. Alright, and so the whole pile is visible, right, like, in one shot?

Matt Zuvella 32:43
Yeah, I think again, it's one of those tools aimed at like the top half a percent of craters. It's like, is Erak going to split with Jake Paul, if he's on his next video, like, Yeah, maybe. But then it's like, what is that split? Or if it's, you know, Jake Paul talking up his next protege? Yeah, there's Jake Paul gets 70% of the money of the ad revenue. Like, I wouldn't even run it entertain what's fair, to be honest. So yeah, I think that's a really cool feature, so to speak. But I'm gonna leave it as a feature. I don't think that's those are companies

Gregarious Narain 33:20
For sure. For sure.

Ken Yeung 33:22
Let's talk a little bit about the tech that you guys have with FamePick? How do you how do you decide what tool what tech you want to put out there? Right, I mean, you have this LinkInBio version? And then if you have a different you have different plans, like for Linkfolio, which is that the aforementioned tool, but what other? Like? How do you know when you want to produce a tool or product for creators and have that set out? And like what other things do you have that FamePick is working to kind of really help to, to support the those that are your client base.

Matt Zuvella 34:06
So we just, Ken, to be honest, this is all through, I wouldn't say trial and error. But we've done a lot of work in the creative space that we've we've done 100 million in just campaigns alone. We used to do performance marketing behind the campaign. So to do whitelisting. Again, as I mentioned before, we used to pitch celebrities. And so our media kit tool, which is part of the folio was deranged from everyone kept sending us PDFs of their media kits, which was cool, but you guys know, in social media, it's like, if you're on TikTok, you can add a million fans in a weekend. And so that PDF you sent the brand on Monday is now out of date, right? Because you went from 1 million to 2 million. And so we built that just out of necessity for us. We have I think one of the coolest kinds of tools for pitching brands, which is almost like a live almost like the background you can see behind me, right? It's just a have images with all the creators listed that we pitch a brand. And it has all their engagement rates and their price points and their follower count so that brands don't have to go dig through Instagram, they don't have to click on 17 different links to see what the what the creators are what they've done. And then like even bounce it with link folio, we were trying to compete with linktree ever beacons or any rights, we built it as a tool where you can showcase as a creator to a brand to make money. Now, obviously, a lot of our users ask for them to be able to add links and all that stuff. It's really built for them like a brand. Hey, Nike, I want to work with Nike, you know, here's my link folio, which we feel is a lot different than sending them your Instagram profile. your Instagram profiles a lot, you know, it can be a lot more personal depending on you know how big you are. And then obviously, there are no demographics attached. They haven't seen, like defined previous work on Instagram. If you guys you've ever done that. It's like one of the hardest things in the world. you're scrolling through for like an hour, all these guys' posts like hey, which brands and they worked with?

Ken Yeung 36:03
Yeah, so this is gonna be

Gregarious Narain 36:09
Linkfolio is like your LinkedIn version of your link.

Matt Zuvella 36:12
Yeah, it's basic. Yes, your resume came from its LinkedIn plus a portfolio...linkfolio. We aren't trying to reinvent the wheel.

Gregarious Narain 36:28
Alright, so I'm gonna have I have a hard question. Let's get to the juicy stuff here. So so far, everyone knows, you know, Matt and I, we share like a Slack. And we're like, I always joke that we're like the grumpy Muppets. Sitting like, in the top, because we see these articles that we just like riff on them. And we go, yeah. What do you think about universal? What's it called? Creator basic income?

Matt Zuvella 36:52
I mean, I think we have to launch that first as a society before we give it to creators,

Gregarious Narain 36:56
That's exactly where I think of it as well.

Matt Zuvella 37:00
I mean, I say the same thing about a lot of stuff, right? It's like, I saw an article I don't remember who wrote it, or like we're trying to change the name creator already, like, the word creator has been hot for like, six months. Let's not change it yet. Please. Yeah, let's let the world understand that these guys can make a living as a creator before we want to go change the name again.

Gregarious Narain 37:20
One, there's an interesting thing, I had the same sad tone as you that, you know, sort of like, Hey, we need that for like humanity. We don't need that for the creator class. But I pushed back actually the Discord about this because I said we're appropriating a term that has a meaning. Right? And I was like, you know, I've run 15 startups in my life, no one guaranteed me success, right? Like, no one guaranteed me like that I was gonna have permission to try to do this thing. And I guess like, sometimes it's a commingling of the personal and the business part. And depending on where you see that line, right, like, it can influence how people think about this stuff, right? Like, I'm like, You don't deserve it from my point of view. You don't deserve a paycheck, just because you're a creator. Right? You compete in a marketplace of ideas for attention, just like everybody else, right? And if you learn and you figure out and you create something compelling, revenue comes to you, right? Because you've earned it through retention, right? The idea that we should horizontally, because you put the word creator in front of something, right? Just suddenly be guaranteed something doesn't really make sense to me now. What I've interpreted this as. And I just think the term it's kind of like the defund the police, like a really bad term but for something that has some merit, potentially to it, is that what I've understood at least is that it seems like what people want is the platforms to play fairer with the dollars that they're taking from the creator. So I think like distributing those dollars, or maybe like, you know, changing the split, hiring more creators into the organization or putting them on payroll, that some of those things make sense to me. But not this other idea of like everyone just being deserved have sort of like the blank check.

Matt Zuvella 39:15
I mean, I think we could probably talk about the splits, Greg, and I'd have had the many conversations about that. We probably can talk about that for five hours. But yeah, I mean, to me, that's the first step. If you want to talk about, you know, Apple and their tax right, then you got to change everyone's splits.

Gregarious Narain 39:30
Yeah, the 30 especially above everything else. Right. Yeah.

Matt Zuvella 39:33
I mean, then I mean, YouTube and twitches are insane. Right. 45%? 55%?

Gregarious Narain 39:40
Twitch is 50. Right.

Matt Zuvella 39:41
Yeah. I mean, that's like if you're saying what's fair. That's the first step.

Gregarious Narain 39:46
Yeah. So in that vein, or that light, I actually think yes, like, like, like a bill of rights for platforms that you know, employ creators to some degree or you know, what's up would provide a platform to creators. I think there's an important conversation that we're trying to have still. Right. And it's feeling its way out. Last week, I think you probably heard we were talking about sort of this emergent business model. Ken, you want to speak to that a little bit about just how we were talking about, like Twitter's new model with over date with tickets and subs, I believe it was.

Ken Yeung 40:19
Oh, yeah, tips. Super follows. And then there, I think it was like Instagrams, like, Look, alright, you're doing super followers, or you're doing, you know, we're gonna do roll out with our exclusive rooms. And it's like, as you're talking about, you know, it's like, how is anything that these startups are doing in the creative space? How are they doing anything that's defensible? Because you look like, Oh, you can have one company? And now it's one thing, right? It's like, oh, Clubhouse is announcing, you know, free puppies for for for subscribers. For something, right? Yeah, yeah, something like that. But then it's like, oh, they could do something. And I guarantee you probably like a week later, or little, maybe an hour later, you're probably saying, oh, Twitter Spaces, hey, we're doing dogs and cats versus follows. Like, wait, hold on, like, what did what just happened? And it's like, and Greg, this is a very, you know, it's like, it's fascinating, you bring this up. Because I was wanting to ask Matt it's like, you know, ahead of the show is like looking like seeing all these quotes from Matt and all these different articles, right? from 2019, from The Guardian, where there's a thing about, like, how Instagram was looking to hide up, you know, likes or posts for influencers, and, and so on and so forth. Like, what is what's the problem with these platforms? Right? And, and it's like, these companies, big tech platforms, like, "Look, we want creators to use us to be on our platform and create on them. And we were basically only really only giving them exposure, right?" It's like, hey, we'll hire you, you know, we're hired, but we won't pay well, but your reach is compensation enough. Like, no, that's, that's, that's crap, right? Don't treat us, like unpaid interns. So this is, it only behooves these platforms to pay actual money when they want something. they are willing to open up their big wallets, a big fat wallets in order to shell up money when they want something. But when it's the creators who say, "Hey, we were barely able to scrape by, and we're paying like this heavy tax to Twitch, to Apple to Google to Facebook/ Instagram site and YouTube, YouTube, these companies like, no, like this, it's the price you pay. This is business, you know. So there's a weird dichotomy at play here. And, Greg, to your point, it's like, I agree creators shouldn't be guaranteed this UBI this universal basic income, obviously, again, society needs to come up with that, figure that stuff out first and apply. It's all this is not a special class. But I think creators are essentially entrepreneurs. And you know what being an entrepreneur is, like, that's, that's what you are, you're going off and you're abandoning, you're bypassing a stable job income, if you're able to have one in favor of saying, I want to go off and do this, right. It's like, Oh, I want to quit my job. And I'm gonna go and be a YouTube broadcaster full time. Nobody's paying me my bills, no one's paying my mortgage. Right? So you know, if that's the hustle, that's the, that's the fact you have to you know, scratch and claw and, and make your way try and earn just to earn a buck.

Matt Zuvella 41:20
I want to touch on Ken's point real quick. that's, to me that kind of ironic part, right is you can't have it both ways. You can't be an entrepreneur and have a universal basic income, right? Usually opposites. Right? People used to become entrepreneurs because they didn't want to work for some type of big corporation. Right. And most entrepreneurs knew that you might not make money, and maybe at all, but at least they're prepared for the first couple of years, like, Hey, I'm gonna try to start whatever I'm trying to start and I know I'm not going to get paid. So it's kind of weird to say like, Hey, you know, creators or businesses and on the other hand, on the other article, you turn around and say, Hey, we have a need to basic income. It's like, that's not what we're, that's not what his startup is. You have to be able to be like, Hey, guys, I'm prepared not to make money for a while, but it

Gregarious Narain 44:27
Feels like we're trying to protect creators from being business people to some degree, right? Like we're like, No, we don't need to be responsible. You don't need to do anything. I didn't look I get it. like not having that acumen. Sort of like, as you said, you can become a business overnight literally in the creator space like where suddenly you're like $0 to blow up and now there's like, all these business concerns potentially the field and filter. You know, I get that part. Right. But but to some degree, it feels like you know, to this Creator MBA article. It feels like we You have to we have to ladder you up to an appreciation of yourself as a business and as entrepreneur, you know if you're going to be successful

Matt Zuvella 45:10
I mean, from what we've seen at FamePick, we've got, you know, for 30 40,000 creators on the platform, we manage 100 ish 150. Not many of them want to be businesses, they want to be creators, they want to be. I mean, it's hard for me to say that, I don't know if they want to be treated as legitimate. Right? They want to see what the work they do they want to be legitimate. I think that's a big difference between being a business a lot of them, have no clue how to pay taxes, how to even start an LLC or an S Corp or C Corp. Right?

Gregarious Narain 45:44
What's the solution there, then do you think like, you know, how do we...

Matt Zuvella 45:47
Well, they need help. They need guidance, right? Like, and I think that's where, you know, I'm not going to plug myself but that's where, you know, creators need help. They need representation of some kind, whether that's a lawyer, whether that's an agent, whether that's a manager because doing that stuff is you have to have the expertise to do it. And that's different expertise than creating content,

Gregarious Narain 46:08
Like outsourced Ops, like business Ops, right, like you just kind of planted somewhere.

Matt Zuvella 46:13
When I get a little tired of people, you know, claiming like, Oh, look at Mr. Beast, it's like, yeah, Mr. Beast has 30 people, maybe 15 people working for Jake Paul's got 50 people working for him.

Gregarious Narain 46:22
They're enterprises. Yeah for sure.

Matt Zuvella 46:23
Yeah, yeah. I mean, they were businesses for years. And so we can't, you know, like, oh, let's put them on a pedestal like everyone needs to be like them. Not everyone wants to be like that. And even so, like, we don't know, unless you've worked with those guys, how much of the business aspect they actually do? I personally don't know, I don't work with them. So I don't know.

Gregarious Narain 46:46
You know, I find it so compelling. Because like, you know, as a founder, perpetual founder, yeah, I find the analogs so comparable, right, like, you know, startup life, etc. Like, I remember my first company, I didn't know jack shit, either. And so I was in the same place, like, I made all the mistakes, did everything wrong, right. Like, and he had to suffer your way through it. But you know, I think of like, Yeah, sure. Like, what did every technical founder love to just write code all day? But yeah, you still got to, like, eventually write, go talk to clients. And, you know, you have to work with designers and you have done all these other things that you don't like doing. Right. But we don't tell those people not to do it. But what we do say is, there are fractional resources that you can lean on, sort of getting to help you succeed, right, like beyond sort of the short term parts, but there is a vocabulary and a language and a level setting. That's there. And I think that's the part we're in now, right? Like is there's um, we're in that part where we're trying to get that edge that we're trying to bridge that gap, not to convert them to businesses, per se, but to get the the situational awareness, right and the and the right context, to start to help make decisions that can get them the growth and the skill that they want, without encumbering them necessarily, with all of the trappings of sort of being like a full on business person.

Matt Zuvella 48:07
Yeah, I think it goes back to we're legitimizing them in some way. Yeah. Before, like, creator, Greg, I think you mentioned it before, it was kind of like, not like a forbidden word to use, but it wasn't like very legitimate and now kind of with the creator economy, boom, the last 18 months, creators are viewed as a lot much more legitimate career, you always see those surveys and articles are like, the kids want to be YouTubers, and they grow up. So I think society's view on creators changes.

Gregarious Narain 48:38
What, you know, here's the thing, I think, the reason this is important is that it helps you write to you knows Matt, you've seen this probably thousands of times over and over. The more someone, as a creator, an influencer can work and speak the language of their client, the better they do, right, like, right, like so. So, so like, it's not about giving in, it's just understanding, right? Like it, you know, it's like, always understand where your check comes from, you know, it's not like you have to bend to their will, if you don't like it, don't do it, you leave, right. But if you understand what's motivating them what they need, how they measure success, right? Like, what their terms would be, etc. You learn over time to be smarter about it, like little by little sometimes through mistakes, and sometimes your success, right?

Matt Zuvella 49:22
And if you don't want to, you know, hire people to get people on your team that knows how to do it. For sure, for sure. That doesn't hurt either. Just like you were saying a technical co-founder if he doesn't want to do the business aspects, you know, hire a good CEO.

Gregarious Narain 49:35
Yeah, I'm hoping we see more. I used to, I still own the domain. I gotten this thing called Pop Up Corp. Because I actually thought like you know, I you when you follow the classic creator journey, what do you go from like, you know, making some like, like stickers, right to like, you know, you got a little swag, then you're like, cool. I'm going to do No, I'm going to go by this, this con or that? Like, and then now you're doing like a little, you're doing a storefront. Right. So I was like pop-ups. I was like, Oh, you know, we should just do like a whole company just like gusts, right? Like just incorporating creators for them. Right? Like I...

Matt Zuvella 50:13
I talked with Steven from the discord group creation. And he's, he's run kind of I don't know if he's running he's an idea now, but he's brought that up many times.

Gregarious Narain 50:23
I think it's so necessary.

Matt Zuvella 50:25
I fully support that. You need LegalZoom for creators.

Gregarious Narain 50:29
Yeah, cuz, you know, I used on Gust for my last company, or a couple of startups ago, or my consulting company. And it was great because it did give you a guided checklist. And like, honestly, if you've never seen it before, it probably still feels daunting, right? A little bit. But you know, what was interesting was still the ability to like, you need to do this and like, alright, you Stripe Atlas to incorporate Zealous, right? And it's like, Hey, you need to file this paper, like, so print it out and sign it and like, just mail it in so that you don't get in trouble later, right? That level of stuff like, and if you want to hire an assistant, like, we should just provide someone to help you. Like, cool, call me up, spend an hour, we do it together, right? Like, and I'll get your signatures where you need it. But I think we need more of these bridges, right? Because I don't think that fully hiding you from these responsibilities is good for you. But I also don't think that encumbrance is particularly valuable either.

Matt Zuvella 51:23
And I also don't think we should call them street businesses yet either. I work with a team of a couple of people I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that's a business. Because of the issue, the big difference I see between a startup and a creator that's trying to be in business or startup is they almost build in public. Right? The creator messes up especially, I mean, you guys can see the last 12 months, right Dobrik, Jake Paul James Charles, right, when they kind of mess up, so to speak. It's almost their entire company's over. But great, as you mentioned, if you messed up and filed the wrong tax form, that's it could be a big screw up, you might owe thousands, but you know, you don't get canceled, so to speak. Right. I think there's a big difference between them. And I think that's where we almost need to give them a little slack and, or if we aren't going to consider their businesses, then when they do screw up, you know, we can't demonetize them immediately. It's like, you know if you messed up your taxes, your company's not over, you get a slap on the wrist and you kind of move on. Yeah. Now, I know, we're talking about two different things here. But I think it's kind of the same.

Gregarious Narain 52:25
Oh, no, they were their commingling. We, this is gonna be the first co-thread that we do, because we need to. I do I think like, there's something missing here. We're creators, like trying to understand where they are like, like, to your point about legitimacy. Right? And, and some of it is like, formality, and then some of it is legitimacy, right? Like, and so like, formality tends to be more required, as you get larger to do is get bigger, right, etc, right? Like, it has more complexity. But the legitimacy is the simple things like having a media kit, right, like, you know, having like a URL that's not like, you know, like rainbows and stuff. I mean, it's great that that's your personality. But like, when a business person is coming to make some decisions, they want to view you in that context, but they also want kind of like the white room version in the green room, like sort of version of it. So they can just analyze it and understand it quickly. Right, not hunted pack, right. So I think that there is something interesting here about just trying to help people understand these this sort of evolutionary phases, right? And I don't think it's purely linear, right? Because unfortunately, as we said, craters go from here to here, like in five minutes, but all the successes are teams. Right? Like, there are no solo people like no, not many. I mean, we're talking, you can count them on one hand. I can't even Yes, are there either way, there's still small teams, right? Like, maybe they're not even full time. It's a network of people. But you know, the everyone's got editors now and they've got you know, managers and social media people and you know, that people like PA, got a lawyer hopefully, you know, my old lawyer was is the one of the leading lawyers, you know, for for creators and influencers. You know, his firm and he's done a ton of work in that space. And he's super expensive, so I don't recommend going to him first You know, but it's interesting like this, there's this ecosystem and I think we only talk about the tech, but there's all these other soft skills and pieces that are that are really important and missing still from the space.

Matt Zuvella 54:25
Yeah, on that point, Greg, I would love to see more of the creator economy focus on the average creator. A lot of the tools just get so pinned in the aim that Jake Paul and Dobrik and all those guys it's like, yeah, of course, that tool is going to work for them but they have 50 million fans or whatever. I mean, you see Jake Paul's merchandise line sell I don't know what it was 50, 60, $70 million. Like Yeah, yeah, because the guys on like, every YouTube video there is. Right now. He's now he's a full-fledged boxer on Showtime.

Gregarious Narain 55:00
By the way, boxing apparently pays like a ton of money. So, of course, you don't even it's, it's insane. I'm a big fan of, half-door like the mountain and strongman in general. And so the two of them are gonna be fighting in September. Like they're gonna make like 10x to make it a year for one fight, you know, so well,

Ken Yeung 55:19
Because it's like you, you count for how many how much your medical needs will be after getting knocked in the head so many times, right? I mean, and it's like, could you continue living a normal life afterward? And would you be fairly compensated as a result of that, right?

Gregarious Narain 55:34
So after the cohort-based classes is boxing, right? To be number one now to be on the top of the pyramid is

Ken Yeung 55:47
I'm going to be it's called Box TV, and basically, it's going to be you know, we're just gonna have a GoPro on my head and my chest and I'm just gonna be boxing. And you can pay to pay to watch that, you know, it'd be available in VR on Oculus...

Gregarious Narain 56:00
How much is it gonna cost to have you punch yourself in the head?

Ken Yeung 56:03
That's, that's a premium version, that'll cost you an additional $10 per month. You later so

Gregarious Narain 56:18
We start gifting those subs to people.

Matt Zuvella 56:23
Don't, Ken. Don't sell yourself short. We can go per punch here.

Ken Yeung 56:28
Well, yeah, well, considering we don't have like, you know, hopefully, hopefully, you know, the Affordable Care Act will still be around for a while that it'll be able to, you know, keep my...

Gregarious Narain 56:36
Someone watching thought that was particularly funny.

Ken Yeung 56:39
Hey, if that's what I'm going to set up I'm going to launch a Patreon right now

Gregarious Narain 56:43
If you would pay a subscription service for Ken to box, and maybe occasionally punch himself in the head. Leave us a comment. wherever you're watching. We'd love to know.

Matt Zuvella 56:53
Give me Ken training videos. We don't know if Ken can throw a punch it can

Ken Yeung 57:00
Hey, hey, I'm gonna go big on TikTok because instead of like a dance tutorial, it's like, here's, I'm going to launch tutorials on how you can hit yourself in the head. Right?

Gregarious Narain 57:10
Like, just be your Tick Tock thing, right? Like just walking around and getting punched in the head by people. Actually, you Oh, you don't live in San Francisco. You could have gotten the content for free. You just have to walk around.

Ken Yeung 57:19
Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. You know, I live in Washington. So there's plenty of cities that can do that. Or I could just go down to you know what I could just go do like you know how they have like a man on the street type of interviews on like, like Jay Leno or Kimmel or whatever. As he could just do that could just go to New York, it's like, but instead of like, you know, I could go like accost random people. But instead of them punching, as I could just fake it and have myself punch myself in the head. Wait, hold on. Where did we?

Matt Zuvella 57:47
I like that.

Ken Yeung 57:48
Oh, see? Did we just launch a launch? Am I now a business? Did I just launch a creator business? Can

Gregarious Narain 57:54
you are officially a business now?

Ken Yeung 57:55
Yes! Okay, just just like Google and YouTube, like $50.

Gregarious Narain 57:59
You know what? We had such a great conversation with Matt, that we forgot to get to the audience. So what we're going to do today is we're going to save it for the after-show if you can make it. Matt, Have you ever been in the new Zealous have you? No, I have not. So yeah, well, thank you, everybody, for joining us today. By the way, we are about to kick off create after dark, we're going to switch over to Zealous to do this. We don't record this part. It's kind of off the record. Not really, you know, everything public these days. But feel free to head over to created.show/live. It's also linked on the homepage of a secret after dark. If you click that little tile, it will take you into the new the next phase of the show. It is an interactive video experience. So you are welcome to come and join us on stage just like you might in Clubhouse, but it gives you the opportunity to come to ask questions, be part of the story, not just watch it or listen to it. So we do look forward to having you join us over there. Once again. Ken, did you share it link out to it? But yeah, head over to created.show/live if you want to join the show, for the after-show.

Gregarious Narain 59:00
And before we go, let's just wrap up with what's coming up next. Matt, thank you so much for being here with us. It's been a pleasure. Lots of great conversations and thought starters for everyone out there. Next week we have Twitch phenom gaming, she does like card or I forgot what they call the kind of game she plays but Nicholena Moon, I had the pleasure of meeting her on Jeff Pulver's "Creator Economy" show. She has a Rally coin as well. We have Fernando from Super Fans coming up the week after that. We got Steven and Antonio from the Black creator crew on July 28. August 4 we will be off and then August 11. Make sure you join us. You can sign up for an RSVP on the created.show site right now. Jim Louderback will be joining us to talk about VidCon, if you don't know and you haven't been then you can just tune in to find out about one of the best creator events that happened.

Matt Zuvella 59:50
If you've never been you guys... This one's going to be...

Gregarious Narain 59:52
we're going yeah, we're gonna launch Ken's punch in the head thing.

Ken Yeung 1:00:00
It's all collabs. Right? It's like I'm going to go around do collabs right?

Gregarious Narain 1:00:05
But beyond August 11, we are looking always looking for more guests. So if you head over to create economy comm there's a link up there if you want to, would like to speak on the show, we have a forum, fill it out, we'd love to have you. We're looking always for great founders, creators and, and of course, investors, anyone else from the ecosystem that can join us? So we'll see you in a few minutes over at creative dot shows slash live. I'm going to switch over there right now. And that's it. Do we have anything else? I think that's it. Thank you for joining us this week for the creative economy. We back next week on Wednesday at 3pm Mountain Time. We'll see you soon for the after-party. Bye.

Matt Zuvella 1:00:44
Thanks, guys.